In this episode of Backstage Pastors™️ Phil and Tyler sit down with David Fletcher, founder of XPastor.org, one of the most comprehensive resource hubs for executive pastors. David shares the origin story of his work, which began out of a lack of available research and has grown into a platform with thousands of resources and hundreds of thousands of annual users.

The conversation explores practical tools available to executive pastors, including free courses, weekly webinars, and a robust salary database built from billions of dollars of church compensation data. David explains how churches can leverage this data for better, more objective compensation decisions and discusses the value of independent compensation studies.

David is a wealth of knowledge gleaned from years of serving executive pastors — and from being one.

Resources Mentioned

💻 XPastor.org⁠

💲Salary Forecaster

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil’s Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻 plainjoestudios.com

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠ @backstagepastors7152

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

Chapters

01:34 – Introducing David Fletcher & XPastor.org

07:29 – The Origin Story of XPastor

10:00 – Free Resources for Executive Pastors

12:00 – Courses, Webinars & Getting Started

14:11 – Compensation Data & Salary Forecaster

17:00 – Why Churches Need Compensation Studies

23:41 – Benefits, Trends & Staffing Insights

27:39 – The Retirement Crisis for Pastors

29:13 – Innovation, AI & Leadership Mindset

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.

In Session 8 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Sean Bublitz will walk you through what it takes to sustain health after a church moves into a new building. While opening day can feel like the finish line, this session reframes it as the beginning of a new season, one that often brings growth, added complexity, and the need for stronger systems, clearer vision, and intentional planning. Sean explores how churches can stay focused on their mission field, avoid making the building itself the vision, and build the rhythms, structure, and team health needed to steward growth well long after the doors open.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 7 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Dennis Park will walk you through the financial realities of funding a church building project. From understanding borrowing capacity and cash flow to preparing financial statements, governance structures, and lender conversations, this session helps church leaders think wisely about financing long before they ever apply for a loan. Dennis also explores how churches can approach bridge loans, construction financing, and debt with greater clarity and stewardship, helping leaders make sound decisions that support both the project and the ministry opportunities ahead.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 6 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, David Whiting will walk you through the essential role generosity initiatives and capital campaigns play in helping churches move building visions forward. Drawing from years of pastoral and consulting experience, David explores the risks that can quietly derail a campaign, from lack of vision and clarity to misalignment and distrust, and shares how churches can build stronger momentum from the start. This session also highlights the importance of engaging leaders and key givers early, communicating with transparency throughout the process.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 5 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Shawn Stewart will walk you through the often-overlooked role interior design plays in shaping the experience of a church building. From flooring and furniture to lighting, materials, and spatial cues, Shawn explains how thoughtful interior selections reinforce the story and values of a church while helping create spaces people genuinely want to gather in. He also explores how design choices influence behavior, support hospitality, and contribute to a cohesive brand experience – ensuring that every detail works together to communicate a consistent and welcoming story.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 4 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Scott Vegte will walk you through the essential role audio, video, lighting, and acoustics play in the success of a church building project. From understanding what AVL actually includes to knowing when to bring an integrator into the process, this session helps church leaders see why these systems can’t be treated as an afterthought. Scott also explores how early planning impacts everything from room acoustics and infrastructure to budgeting, technology lifecycles, and long-term support.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 3 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Bryce Reyes will walk you through the important role signage, wayfinding, and environmental graphics play in shaping a church’s first impression. Grounded in the story of your church, this session explores how thoughtful design choices – from materials and typography to placement and visibility – can create a more welcoming, intuitive, and cohesive experience. Bryce also shares practical insight into common signage mistakes, cost-effective solutions, and how churches can use graphics and placemaking elements to reinforce their identity across every touchpoint.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In Session 2 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Mel McGowan will walk you through the foundational role architecture and master planning play in shaping a healthy church building project. Rather than starting with floor plans or committees, Mel explores why every successful project begins by clarifying the story your church is meant to tell. From strategic storytelling and space planning to long-term phasing, site constraints, and the realities of working with cities, architects, and builders, this session helps church leaders understand how to approach design with greater clarity, stewardship, and vision.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

https://theunstuckgroup.com/

In Session 1 of the Church Building Projects Masterclass, Phil Taylor will walk you through the moment many growing churches eventually face… realizing that a building project may be on the horizon. Rather than rushing straight into design or construction, this session focuses on the strategic groundwork that leads to healthier outcomes. From clarifying the story and mission of your church to conducting needs assessments, master planning, and evaluating feasibility, Phil introduces the key early steps that help churches approach a building project with clarity, wisdom, and the right team in place.

—

During seasons of church growth, having adequate space becomes a constant pressure. Adding services is one of the best strategies you can engage in to improve the health of your church: It forces you to multiply the number of leaders in your church, increase volunteers, and create simpler systems.

But there comes a point in time when you are approaching that critical mass in all of the services you can reasonably add, and it’s time to consider building or expanding a facility.

So, what do you do when you are staring down that reality?

In this free masterclass series, The Unstuck Group, PlainJoe Studios and friends will walk you through it from start to finish.

Learn how to approach a necessary building project in a strategic way that leads to the healthiest outcomes.

Whether you need to build for the first time, expand or update an existing facility, renovate a building you were gifted, or construct a campus’ first permanent home, you will walk away with a clearer understanding of all the elements you need to consider, and the logical order to take them in:

1. The first meeting you need to have & what to bring
2. Crash course in architecture & master planning
3. Crash course in good signage, graphics and theming
4. Wise planning for audio, visual and lighting
5. Interior design basics to save you money down the road
6. Generosity initiatives that work
7. Selecting the right banking partner
8. Sustaining momentum after you move in

In this 6-hour online series, learn everything you need to know about the types of church building projects and the various issues you need to consider.
—
At PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, we partner with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, interactive, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit.
—
ABOUT THE UNSTUCK GROUP
We’re passionate about helping church leaders like you grow healthy churches. Through practical coaching and proven strategies, we guide churches to align their vision, strategy, team, and action for lasting impact.

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors Podcast™️ Phil and Tyler interview Jeremy Peterson, Executive Pastor at One Church in New Hampshire and a leader involved with the XP Summit. Jeremy shares his ministry journey from student ministry in Texas to leadership roles in multi-site churches and eventually serving in New England—one of the most unchurched regions in the United States. He explains the unique leadership and staffing challenges of ministry in that environment and how his church has responded by developing local leaders.

Jeremy discusses the creation of a residency program at One Church to raise up leaders internally, emphasizing hands-on ministry training and leadership development. He also explains the purpose and structure of the XP Summit, a gathering designed specifically for executive pastors to connect, learn, and support each other in ministry leadership.

Resources Mentioned

🗣️ ⁠Xpsummit.org⁠
⛪️ ⁠One Church – church.one

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil’s Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻 plainjoestudios.com

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠ @backstagepastors7152

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

Chapters
03:00 Why the podcast originally paused five years ago
07:00 Podcast swag and upcoming conferences
09:30 Introducing guest Jeremy Peterson
10:00 Jeremy’s ministry journey from Texas to New England
13:00 Ministry challenges in unchurched regions
19:00 Building a residency program for leadership development
25:00 The story and purpose of the XP Summit
34:00 Final reflections and upcoming guests

– –
Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.

In this episode, Phil and Tyler sit down with Kyle Nabors, a seasoned executive leader who has served in both large churches and global nonprofits. Kyle shares insights from decades of experience, including time at Kensington Church (a 10,000+ attendee church) and Mercy Ships, and reflects on leadership, culture, trust, and the nuanced role of the executive pastor.

One of the central themes is Kyle’s well-known metaphor: the church as a well-watered garden versus a well-oiled machine. While certain systems require precision and predictability (finances, child safety, compliance), much of ministry leadership requires organic flexibility, attentiveness, and faith. Structure must serve mission—not the other way around.

Throughout the conversation, you’ll be reminded that effective executive leadership isn’t about control—it’s about calibration. It’s about knowing the “blood type” of the organization, understanding the personality of the lead pastor, and helping clarify direction while cultivating culture.

Resources Mentioned

🗣️ ⁠Follow Kyle⁠ – / kyle-nabors-signature
⛪️ ⁠Ward Church – ward.church

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil’s Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻 plainjoestudios.com

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠ @backstagepastors7152

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

Chapters
00:00 – Introduction to Kyle Nabors
04:00 – Kyle’s Leadership Journey: Military, Business, Nonprofit & Church
09:00 – The Lunch That Sparked a Book
11:53 – Structure Must Serve the Mission
15:00 – Trust: The Currency of the Executive Pastor
21:19 – Backstage Leadership at Kensington Church
25:00 – Diagnosing Before Prescribing
31:54 – Thriving, Authenticity & Spiritual Health
36:00 – Navigating Church vs. Nonprofit Culture
43:48 – Return on Investment, Direction & Stewardship

– –
Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.

In this episode of The Backstage Pastors Podcast™️, Phil and Tyler sit down with longtime friend and ministry partner Ed Marcelle to explore the dynamics of the Lead Pastor (LP) and Executive Pastor (XP) relationship. Drawing from their shared history planting Terra Nova Church in upstate New York, the conversation traces Ed’s journey from solo church planter to national church planting leader. Along the way, they unpack lessons on burnout, vision, organizational leadership, team-based ministry, and the importance of mutual submission between LPs and XPs. The episode also highlights Ed’s transition into his current role serving church planters across the country and reflects on what it means to steward God’s investment in leaders for long-term, generational impact.
Note: This interview was recorded a few years ago, but we decided we liked it so much, we just had to keep it.

Resources Mentioned

🗣️ Follow Ed: / emarcelle

💻 Harbor Church Planting Network: harbornetwork.com

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil’s Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻 plainjoestudios.com

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠ @backstagepastors7152

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

Chapters
01:40 – Series Overview and Defining the Executive Pastor Role
03:17 – Announcement: Church Building Projects Masterclass
06:24 – Introducing Mike Bonem
08:38 – The Story Behind Leading from the Second Chair
12:38 – Why Thriving in the Second Chair Was Written
14:04 – Extending Your Shelf Life in Ministry
17:00 – Finding Encouragement in Backstage Ministry
24:50 – Why Change Is So Hard in Churches
33:09 – Preparing for the Executive Pastor Role

– –
Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors Podcast™️, hosts Phil and Tyler kick off the series by welcoming longtime executive pastor, author, and consultant Mike Bonem. The conversation centers on the origins and evolution of the executive pastor (XP) and second-chair leader role, drawing heavily from Mike’s seminal book Leading from the Second Chair and his more recent work Thriving in the Second Chair.

Mike shares the story behind writing one of the first books focused on second-chair leadership, reflects on how the XP role has changed over the past two decades, and offers practical wisdom for sustaining long-term effectiveness in backstage ministry. The discussion also explores challenges around change management in churches, delegation, metrics, and how second-chair leaders can find encouragement and visible impact even when their work often happens behind the scenes.

Resources Mentioned

Leading from the Second Chair by Mike Bonem

Thriving in the Second Chair by Mike Bonem

Leading Congregational Change by Mike Bonem

In Pursuit of Great and Godly Leadership by Mike Bonem

From Our Partners

💻 ⁠The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at thechurchhub.org

Connect with Phil Taylor

✉️ ⁠Get Phil’s Newsletter⁠

✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠

💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠

💻 plainjoestudios.com

Connect with Tyler Drewitz

✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠

🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠

💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠

💻⁠ ridgelineprinting.com⁠

LIKE & SUBSCRIBE

📹⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠ @backstagepastors7152

🍏⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠

🎤⁠ ⁠Spotify

CHAPTERS

01:40 – Series Overview and Defining the Executive Pastor Role

03:17 – Announcement: Church Building Projects Masterclass

06:24 – Introducing Mike Bonem

08:38 – The Story Behind Leading from the Second Chair

12:38 – Why Thriving in the Second Chair Was Written

14:04 – Extending Your Shelf Life in Ministry

17:00 – Finding Encouragement in Backstage Ministry

24:50 – Why Change Is So Hard in Churches

33:09 – Preparing for the Executive Pastor Role

– –

Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.

Tim Healy currently serves as a lecturer in Theology and Ministry at Alphacrucis College in Perth, Western Australia. He has been in full time ministry for 25 years and has pastored two churches: a 1500 member Assemblies of God church in Johannesburg, South Africa and more recently a 4500 member independent charismatic congregation called Riverview Church, in Perth, WA. He has a Masters degree in theology from the University of Wales with a thesis focus on Christian Environmental Ethics. He is married to Liezl and they have two children, a 15-year-old son called Nathan and an 11-year-old daughter called Rachael. Tim is also a passionate wildlife photographer and formidable poker player.

Tim shares with us about utilizing crisis in your leadership, prioritizing the all important work of thinking and offers an outsider’s perspective on the American Church.

Find Tim at TimHealy.net

Dave Dummitt is the Senior Pastor at Willow Creek Church in the Chicagoland area. Before serving at Willow, he had founded 2|42 Community Church, which was recognized by Outreach Magazine as one of the fastest-growing churches in the United States. Dave shares with us what it’s like to take over a new church, the listening sessions that he implemented as he arrived, the mindset that everything ought to multiply, and utilizing physical campuses to serve the needs of the community during the week.

Dr. Alexander is the President of Hope International University, a Christian University in Southern California that has been preparing servant leaders since 1928. He talks to us about changes he is seeing in ministry students over the decades, a unique take on how to combat consumerism in the church, how to engage millennials in leadership and intentionally pursuing soul care and space for reflection.

Blake Ryan, founder of Restoration Roasters and also cohost of the Tomorrowland Church Podcast shares about his experience with innovating new ways for the church to partner in the community with a local organization and with other local churches in launching an intentional local business.

Jared is the Lead Pastor at Parkcrest Christian Church in Long Beach, CA. Jared shares with us about creating intentional dreaming days, the significance of changing environments to reinvigorate, leaning into self-awareness, and the reality of how who we’re becoming shapes the kind of future that we’ll lead into.

Nancy Beach helped to innovatively bring different expressions of the arts into the church culture over the past several decades. Her first book, “An Hour on Sunday”, helps to express a vision for an effective arts ministry. She currently serves as a leadership coach and wrote her second book about leading as a woman in the church, called “Gifted to Lead”.

She shares with how we don’t have to put authenticity and excellence at odds, teaching leaders how to say goodbye in order to make room for the next generation, seeing women and men partnering together in leadership, and surrounding ourselves with beauty and thoughtfulness.

Kem Meyer is a brand therapist and clarity advisor known for eliminating the complexity and information overload that sabotages effective work. She is the author of “Less Chaos, Less Noise”, and spends time talking with us about what it looks like to move from being the person who has the answers to becoming someone who goes on a learning journey in order to be thinking about the church of tomorrow.

Dave Gibbons is the Founding Pastor and Chief Visionary of New Song Church in Santa Ana, CA. He has written multiple books including “The Monkey and the Fish”, “Xealots”, and “Small Cloud Rising”. Dave shares about how a trip to Thailand changed the trajectory of his ministry at what had been recognized as one of the fastest and most innovative churches in America. Dave helps us think through how we navigate this present moment as well as how we be leaders who are always on the edge of dreaming about the future

Chris Kirish is the Lead Pastor at Renovate Church in Long Beach. Chris was in the midst of building a church plant when COVID hit, forcing him to have to decide how he would move forward. He and his team decided to adjust to launch digitally. Chris talks to us about what it looks like to be committed to a vision and to also be open to adjusting that vision.

Chuck Booher is the Senior Pastor at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona. Chuck is constantly innovating while maintaining a relational ministry posture. In our inaugural episode, Chuck shares with us some new ideas they’re working on and how he maintains rhythms of innovation while leading a large established church.

The trailer for the Tomorrowland Church podcast.